brian.teeman.net: Inspired, copied or plain stolen... | Mister Men - brian.teeman.net
rhuk
· 3 months ago
For the record, i have just received the apology letter and a notice that Joomlart is removing said modules from TelineIII distribution.
I still don't appreciate the false reports of emails and communications during this debacle. Effectively we had code stolen from us, and then I've been called a liar when I tried to notify Joomlart and resolve this quietly.
Anyway, it's done, and I now know how Joomlart does business. Lesson learned.
drarvindc
· 3 months ago
Dear Brian, No doubt something has gone wrong. Yes JA did receive email from Mr. Andy on 14th and Mr. Hung did reply it back to him on 15th and analysis and confirmation of the codes similarity (as pointed out) was and is underway. JA has replied to Mr. Andy mail and is coming up with detailed reply to Mr. Andy and other concerned friends from Joomla.org. Its not sounding right, that JA did not respond to emails from Mr. Andy. JA did email back to all the concerned emails and JA will not hesitate to admit or accept of faults on its end.
JA is equally serious about the whole issue.
Here are the headers of the email conversation, Please look at the date.
This comment is only to clarify your worry that "And if JoomlArt had responded to the emails from RocketTheme I would probably have never written this." Anyways, it was in open in RT forums for few days now. Once, email correspondence between JA and RT is conclusive, JA shall make its conclusions public if really asked for or required, so as to clarify and put this issue to rest. JA be given this period.
JA is in touch with Mr. Andy and JA awaits the reply from Mr. Andy and also JA is coming up with a detailed mail explaining on the issues concerned.
Dear Friends, reading and commenting here, please be assured of fair practices at JA and JA stands committed. JA be given chance to explain its stand and findings. The words currently being used hurts. JA is a responsible Entity.
I am Dr. Arvind C., Super Mod at JA and friend of Mr. Hung, requesting all to give JA some time to finalize its findings.
Peace.
Arvind
------------------
@ Brian, I would suggest Keira Knightley as the gratuitous love interest.
-------------------
rhuk
· 3 months ago
Let's not bring more fallacy and cover up into this. This purported email was never sent to me. I had explicitly set up this email address on my white list, and had been patiently waiting for a personal reply as my original email requested. The very FIRST email I have received from Mr. Hung or anyone else at Joomlart arrived this morning in my inbox. The email notified me an apology was forthcoming, almost a full 24 hours after this blog post was written.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Just to confirm that I spoke to Andy Miller 2 hours before this article was posted and he informed me that he had received no email from yourselves other than an automated reply.
And as you have confirmed from the email subject the module I highlighted in my blog post is NOT the only one taken from RocketTheme.
drarvindc
· 3 months ago
Hi Brian, What Mr. Andy recieved (automated response) was submission mail from the support system. I do have the forwarded copy of the emails sent to and fro. and if you wish i can forward the same for your reference and information. Hung did reply personally to Mr. Andy. My earlier post was not about confirmation of the modules involved, it was purely for the information that JA has replied to the queries raised by Mr. Andy.
A final email along with a hard copy is being prepared (almost done) and shall be sent across to Mr. Andy.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Well I have comfirmed that both the modules contain stolen code with no creditation
Saka
· 3 months ago
Not diminishing their act, we have to use appropriate terminology. The code is not stolen. A copyright breach is NOT a theft, it's a copyright breach.
When you "steal" something the person who owned it doesn't have it any more. In this case they still have it but it's been copied without consent.
I am just getting sick of all music labels arguments that downloading their music is the same thing as stealing from a supermarket. It's not.
Mike Feng
· 3 months ago
Playing devil's advocate: Yay for encrpyption!
But yeah, that was uncool of Joomlart.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Even if it had been encrypted the xml file would not have been and the theft would still have been obvious.
Nicholas
· 2 months ago
Are you suggesting that extension developers encrypt the source of their extensions? That's a whole other mess and would prevents users from customizing GPL extensions as they should be able to freely do. It's counter to the spirit of GPL, which is all about source being completely open and free for anyone to use, modify, and build upon.
Additionally, it requires users to have additional nonsense (such as IonCube) installed on their server to even use the extensions.
I think the real solution is obvious: have morals.
That means that as a developer modifying someone else's GPL'ed work, do not remove their copyright notice.
If you're a user and you become aware of a company knowingly doing exactly that (ie, repeated history of such violations, not taking responsibility for their actions, etc), do not enable them by purchasing from them.
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
I'm not but Mike might have been
RCheesley
· 3 months ago
Was reading just the same about SEF Advance over here http://www.sakic.net/blog/why-am-i-encoding-my-... - no names mentioned but sounds like the same thing. About time someone started cracking down on this in my opinion.
Wow I didn't know they were serial offenders. Isn't there a "three strike" rule?
Olli
· 3 months ago
Boring, boring, boring...thats called GPL. Credits would be fine though.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
1. One of the great things about open source software is that we can see the code and learn from it. That's one of the intentions. 2. One of the great things about open source software is that we can adapt it as we see fit for our own needs. That's one of the intentions. 3. There is just one rule. Credit where credit is due.
drmmr763
· 3 months ago
This saddens me. I love both company's products. *tear*
Johan Janssens
· 3 months ago
Shame on you JoomlaArt and kudos to you Brian for making this public. A textbook example of a GPL license violation. One of many, I'm afraid. Would be interesting to see how many of these violations exist on the JED today.
Copyright and GPL are two different things. Yet still so many people who don't understand the finer details or just neglect them.
Guido Jansen
· 3 months ago
I'm not a programmer, but I do have some experience in people taking something from you that is not theirs, very uncool. There is software that checks students papers on copyright infringements, I suppose a similar system could be applied to check software in the JED. Would be very interested in the output of that program....
Rastin Mehr
· 3 months ago
@JoomlaStolenArt - what you did was so uncool!
coffeegroup
· 3 months ago
It'll be cool when a developers and artists can not only use the code itself but watermark-like elements to travel with their work, to ID the rip-off artists.
I could see a time-release element on the watermark that would, 24 hours after the thief posts it, leave an indelible pink smudge all over the rip-off artist's page, like banks do with stolen cash, or public pool managers do to visually identify who took a whiz in the shallow end.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
How would you see this working with GPL software, John where it is perfectly legitimate to re-use the code etc but you have to provide the appropriate credits and not remove copyright statements etc.
I don't think you can ever have a fool proof method to prevent this sort of theft
coffeegroup
· 3 months ago
Right, that won't prevent theft, but when I was a lifeguard, it only took one embarrassed kid, tagged with blue dye clouding around his waist in June to prevent most kids from peeing in the pool the rest of the summer.
The day's coming when the DNA of the elements which define content itself will be carry information - be that in images, fonts and text, video, audio and live content - and be quite capable of identifying the bad guys, and leaving a clear trail for authorities (and lawyers) to enforce another kind of "IP" justice. Oh god, I kill me.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
LOL - I can see you doing that.
I really hate naming and shaming as a general principle but at the same time I believe in openness. People who attempt to benefit from the backs of others hard work really are the lowest of the low in my book.
coffeegroup
· 3 months ago
It beats swimming in salty pool water for the rest of the summer. Anyhoo, great article, Brian. I like the insight and determination to answer questions most of us wouldn't take the time or effort to uncover.
You mean another story don't you. Thanks for highlighting it
edo888
· 3 months ago
Sure
Wilco Jansen
· 3 months ago
During summer of code 2008 we had a student that took code from a commercial extension without crediting the original copyright holders, not even mentioning the fact that he took the code. In this situation it was very clear what to do, we failed the student and he got banned from the summer of code project. I was quite sick about this happening, and the example you put out Brian make me feel the same again...
I do not know what policy currently is enforced on the JED, but this is a clear example on a violation, and a reason to be removed from the JED if you ask me.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
I remember you telling me about the SoC student but wasn't sure if that was publick domain so I didn't mention it.
The JED policies are fairly clear and I am sure that IF JoomlArt had attempted to publish their module on JED it would have been removed eventually.
But JoomlArt are not listed, don't know why, so it was only a "name and shame".
Note this is NOT the only time they have been caught out stealing templates and modules
Seriously I don't mind adding a DIGG button to this blog but I genuinely am under the impression that it's no longer used. I see digg links so rarely now
Joomla Sydney - Pete
· 3 months ago
oh dear, public shaming!
lafrance
· 3 months ago
LOl this is sad however point to the fact that rockethteme rule the nest and other dev are to lazy and steal from the best place
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
I think if this had been done by some small unknown developer it might have been percieved very differently but JoomlArt are not a small developer at all and probably run rocketheme close in size.
As i said its wtfpl - but probably not a good idea to hotlink to the images. if they ever go they will break your site
lafrance
· 3 months ago
Hello made sure not to copy image I never do that .plus article creator in article as your name and link to other news to your web site.
jeddy
· 3 months ago
Good on you for calling them out, and excellent investigative work. That was totally uncool of JoomlArt. Thanks for sharing this. I've shared this post with my fellow peeps who are joomlart members and they were very disappointed with them...
torkilj
· 3 months ago
Yep, I shared it with some people too. Disappoint-much!
Joshua Wood
· 3 months ago
Thanks for the heads up. As far as the other reports about Joomlart that some have brought to our attention in the comments, it goes to show that even developers who use template clubs such as Joomlart for their professional work need to be very careful that they buy from a trusted source to avoid complications themselves.
Brian Sullivan
· 3 months ago
I work with designers who do just that a lot. In fact, I just finished modifying a template from with a law firm's site that specializes in Intellectual Property with a template from a (good) template vendor. It's a scary thing to contemplate that if the designer had spec'd the purchase of a Joomlart license we might have run into IP theft... Imagine the embarrassment.
Lawrence Meckan
· 3 months ago
Welcome to the underbelly of the Joomla world.
Not the first time this has happened, even at an official level. When people are being trained at Joomla Days to rip and repackage other people's creative copyrighted works (note, there is no clear delineation on a GPL licence violation in this case), it's not half obvious that things are not sunshine and roses within the Joomla community.
The problem is that the horse has well and truly bolted in terms of copyright protection, since there has been a history of copyright infringement for a while. This problem is pervasive across the Joomla industry / bazaar / marketplace, and nothing is done about it.
And you wonder why people encrypt and provide dial-home devices? To stop this sort of copyright infringement occurring. But hey, the JED and OSM only allow GPL works.. and it still happens...
The irony here is deafening.
MrClick
· 3 months ago
Shouldn't there be some sort of Hall of Shame for such acts? To me it is disgraceful, and though I have considered in the past to subscribe with them, now, I have decided I am not going to.
thanhnv
· 3 months ago
Thank you very much for alerting me of the blog post. I am the author of the above codes
For the last few days, I feel very sad and regretfull for the big mistake that I have committed. Actually, my careless deeds has seriously affected the fame that JoomlArt team has been building very hardly so far. However, I also would like to clarify that is just because of my carelessness while doing reference, not ever have intention of copying other's creation illegally.
I have joined JoomlArt team shortly since 17/Aug/2009, only 1 month ago. Though, I have been working as a web developer for 3 years now but my experience in this new enviroment with high competition from global market is totally fresh. As a new member of JoomlArt and a new web developer, I was assigned to do the weather module for the great Teline III . I know that I need to do reference to other successful module of same type in Joomla extensions including Rok weather, to learn the good and ignore the bad features with the hope to do our self's best products.
After thorough research and learning from other sources, I do rewrite all the codes for JA weather module into JoomlArt standards and requirements. However, due to my carelessness and the pressure of handing in a module for release of the August JoomlArt template- JA TEline III, I have forgotten to remove the reference sources away out of cookies, not imagining how serious this mistake is.
I respect other's works and only by this way, I know other can respect my works. I am admired of JoomlArt's efforts and contribution in web development and templates in particular so far so that is the reason why I join this team. I do hope you understand my position and help me and my company to overcome this terrible issue.
Once again thank you and please contact me if I can clarify things in better way.
Best Regards,
Nguyen Viet Thanh JA Developer
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Its not just the cookies though is it?
As I said in my post the correct thing to do would have to credited RocketTheme and respected their copyright statements.
And if JoomlArt had responded to the emails from RocketTheme I would probably have never written this.
thanhnv
· 3 months ago
I have just talked with Hung Dinh (JAFounder) & I am going to upload codes of the modules into Google projects for everyone to review and will correct thing upon everyone reviews and comments. I am trying to fix my mess and hope to receive the support.
I am so stress because so many pressure out on my mistake, from the boss, from the fellow workers and now from the Joomla team
No one is perfect, however he is trying his best to put everything into the right track, does he desert the second chance?
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Why don't you just sit down in front of your computer with NO existing files open, and no internet connection and write the code from scratch.
That way you won't be tempted
(I suggest that you also re-examine the other work you have done for JoomlArt and ensure that that is properly credited as well. It's really not hard for an outsider to look at two files and find the similarities. Similarities that you don't get without copy-paste)
thanhnv
· 3 months ago
Thank for the advice, Brian. I have them revised already during the last 3 days. it's not hard for me and I feel ready for any responsibility.
However, this is really hard for JA and my team, I just joined and now ruining JA reputation which they have built for many years. I can not just "sit down" in front of my computer and code the reputation from the scratch.
......I am sorry, JoomlArt & Joomla fellows
Mark Simpson
· 3 months ago
While you deserve the flack you're getting for this, don't let the JA team give you any. They are notorious for not giving credit for the use of other people's creative work:
I do think they are 4 different art works. (as my first impression) I ll digg down and may come up with new thoughts
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Oh and while you are at it I suggest that you, or whoever at JoomlArt it was, also take a look at the JA Stock Widget and rewrite that from scratch as well.
I really can't be bothered right now but I could have done the same analysis on that module and come up with the same results.
Mark Simpson
· 3 months ago
thanhnv,
Why waste your time uploading it to Google? Just put back the rokweather copyright info that you earlier deleted.
Your crime is not in copying the code, your crime is in claiming it as your own.
One would also like to see an official response from this Hung Dinh fellow... since he is the one selling/distributing the extension in violation of the GPL.
thanhnv
· 3 months ago
Should I? Once it has been totally rewritten?
Also, the beta download has not been distributed, the related issues is about the Demo site when it is open for testing.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am positively listening and correcting everything
Joomla Insider
· 3 months ago
Yes you should!
You based you code on someone else's work. That is why the code and files you based it on where in there in the first place. You even left the same default location and parameters. You derived your work from theirs. It may be mostly different, but that doesn't matter. You used theirs as inspiration and to "to learn the good and ignore the bad features"
All you had to do was leave the copyright info in there and add your own as well. Then good manners would be to send an email to the person who wrote it and say "Hey I have made a derivative work from yours. An attribution and your copyright are still in there." If you had done that none of this would have happened.
RadioErewan
· 3 months ago
I do not think, you are helping JA saying anything other than "I am very sorry." Thanks to this event, will never consider JA club membership, to support such arrogant people.
Marco Jardim
· 3 months ago
I'm very far from being the best programmer out there, but I made my company's weather module in about a day with the help of our main developer.
I can understand that some things aren't cost-effective to develop, but a weather module, out of all things...
hungdinh
· 3 months ago
Hi Everyone,
I am Hung Dinh from JA.
This issue has been brought up to my attentions 3 days ago and we have made necessary actions as well as be in close contact with Andy Miller, Andrew Eddie & Brian on the issues.
I feel that there have been enough clarification & explanations from thanhnv about how things have gone wrong.
JA templates and products, are also being inspired, copied, stolen everyday & everywhere on the internet and we understand how bad the feelings can be.
I have sent letters of clarification & apology to Andy and still wait for his response.
rhuk
· 3 months ago
I don't like your 'spin' on this Hung. I sent that email to you on the 14th. I received 2 automated replies, then i received one email from you today (17th) saying your sorry, and an apology is forthcoming. I still have not received said apology.
If you are going to apologize, then apologize. Don't continue to lie and say you have been in 'close contact', you have not, you've been AWOL. You have not sent a letters of clarification or an apology to me, I'm still waiting on both. I have merely received one email saying something more is coming.
hungdinh
· 3 months ago
This is not true Andy, you contacted via the contact form and the 2 auto replies email is generated by ticket system. Later on sou forwarded email directly to my inbox on Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 10:33 PM about and I reply at Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 11:13 PM which is just 45 minutes later.
I assume you did not get this 1 page long email, I have also forwarded to all my team & moderators. I have just resent and want to be clear on the communication.
rethavs
· 3 months ago
I was going to say: I agree.. JoomlArt, own up to it... and say you're sorry! Andy works hard on his code, and he deserves more than silence!
But then I saw your message Hung Dinh... :-)
rhuk
· 3 months ago
unfortunately what he typed is not what has happend.
J. Arnold Wender
· 3 months ago
Naming the author is common sense...
"The open-source movement is based on programmers writing software and then giving it away, with coding for all to see. Every programmer who uses it is free to improve on it, in the process creating constantly improving, free software. "
I Twittered this a few days ago only because I have a little experience of Joomlart and well, I just gotta say I'm not surprised and I don't think many are.
Bottom line, they did what they did and not for the first time and they've been found out and not for the first time. However they want to gloss this over people will see it as just gloss.
It is sad that they do it but that is what Joomlart do, it's their method of operating. If you don't mind it fine, but just be careful that if you are a developer, one day you might see something you've written on their website and they'll be acting like they built it.
JoomBlocks
· 3 months ago
If I remember well I saw a tweet about this thing already several days ago from one of the rockettheme developers. Could that be right? Because if yes, Joomlart could have known about it as well. And they didn't take action, although they could have. But there wasn't any response until Brian decided to bring it out in the open here? If yes, that makes it even more sad that Andy almost has to ask for an apology / clarification. I think the developer has been fired meanwhile, right? If Joomlart doesn't it would almost seem like they told him to start his work by looking closely at what the competition created...
CodeLab
· 3 months ago
I Saw This First On 14-Sep... This Was The Tweet By @iapostolov http://twitter.com/iapostolov/status/3961528656 Tweet Also Has Link To RT Forum Post Where By RT Was Notified About It... It Just Said "A competitor of RocketTheme is using their code" By This Time Name Of Competitor Was Not Clear...
Later That Day Another Tweet From @iapostolov Mentioned Template Name As Teline III http://twitter.com/iapostolov/status/3964908480 I Did A Quick Search To Find Teline III Is JA Template...
And Then Yesterday I Saw The Blog Post Here..... That Was The Quick Recap From What I Was Following.... :-)
ivoapostolov
· 3 months ago
Yes, I reported this almost immediately after the above commented extensions were distributed.
sinosk
· 3 months ago
lol,interesting article title and picture.
jane
· 3 months ago
children need to learn about license before use software :P
jacusomer
· 3 months ago
Read through JoomlArt forurms for years and reading through this article for hours. I realize that the JA Developer is not thanhnv. All of his sentences and all of his words, I can swear to god this is Hung Dinh's intonation. Even supporters or staffs of JA Forums don't have good English writting and vocabulary like that. There is no doubt. You can kill me if I'm wrong, anyway it's just a virtual world, you can fake anything you like. So sad.
benn
· 3 months ago
cmon we all know that they( JA) are masters in "designs" , every now and then they grab someones design how about this
Joomla Art not quite caught with their pants down but sloppily caught with their socks down at least :-) haha
Excellent article, a full audit of all Joomla based extensions and modules would be interesting indeed...wonder how many articles you could wirte then?
Marco Bertolini
· 3 months ago
It seems pointless and unnecessary to discuss whether "this is mine or this is yours" especially when we talk about commercial extensions that are based on 90% free resources. How would the situation be if Google and Yahoo to vindicate the rights and claims for the use of these free resources distributed by two contenders as commercial own works?
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Marco this is not about commercial or non-commercial this is about maintaining copyright notices.
Marco Bertolini
· 3 months ago
Brian you are absolutely right and I agree with you ;-) but ... what emerges from this sad story is lacking creativity and inspiration when always on movement around 3 to 4 repeating scripts So I remain difficult shocked when such events occur because it is the normal life cycle when no new ideas and creativity are no longer with us.
jacusomer
· 3 months ago
I would not agree with you Marco. This is not something about creativity or ideas. It is the way they run the business as well as the products quality. For the case, I assume that JA got the not-really-good QA team (or developers ?). Companies can take any outsource scripts and build it up, should not take scripts from competitor which is commercial script. That's why it is all about the ridiculous in JA business we are watching.
ivoapostolov
· 3 months ago
Brian, having catch the topic, why don't you investigate also these: http://twitter.com/AmyStephen/status/4023389273 These are in JED for ages, totally non-GPL, reported by me, by AmyStephen and by others. Reported weeks ago. And still there.
Let's also look at the Joomla Connect rules: Feeds from originating sites that distribute extensions will only be published if those extensions are GPL-compliant. Do not make it difficult for us to verify this. If we can't easily find proof, your feed submission will not be accepted.
However Joomla Connect continuously post the blogs from instantPHP and Joomlart. The first one have non GPL extensions, Joomlart as well (and encrypted) and Joomlart templates now require an additional fee for removing copyright (also non GPL for the PHP files). All of these reported MANY times.
I really start to believe that these developers are paying to the JED editors and JoomlaConnect manager to be still there.
Brian Teeman
· 3 months ago
Ivo thats a completely different issue and not related to this topic. Please don't attempt to hijack blog posts or make unwarranted attacks on people. I'll let it go this time.
ivoapostolov
· 3 months ago
OK Brian, I understand your point. Wanted to point it out, that's all. Respect
how many of our scripts did they use for this template?
Guido Jansen
· 2 months ago
Ah, again? C'mon guys... give credits or get creative...
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
Once is unfortunate, twice is bad but three times!!!!
Surely it's time for us as a Joomla community to do something about this.
For now I would suggest that the joomlart template included in the core of Joomla is removed
speechless_communications
· 2 months ago
Do I smell another blog post, Brian? ;-)
speechless_communications
· 2 months ago
In looking further into this, it seems it may be more than just once, twice, three times. Seems there's some question about their "ethics" in the development of the new site template for Linux.com as well...
Sad.... just so sad.
Thomas Kahl
· 2 months ago
ja_teline III is downloaded nearly 4000 times now. I would send them an invoice for the commercial use of your code. By deleting the copyright, they showed that they need a special license. I think, this could be something you could offer them for $2 per download..
Sorry that I mixed up youjoomla and rockettheme. The purpose of the tweet still stands though.
AmyStephen
· 2 months ago
Wait a minute - Your company is identified in the Copyright. Your work is licensed using the GPL. They have every right to distribute that. They did not change the license and they credited you. What am missing here?
first link is their extension , no copyright given to us , second link is us , yes anyone can distribute but with copyright in tact
AmyStephen
· 2 months ago
OK, good enough. I was wrong. I was in the middle of a blog post and confirming the details before I said something and then thought maybe there was a misunderstanding about the GPL. I can see what you are saying now.
It wouldn't hurt to bring together the others who have been infringed and contact the FSF and see what legal support they can offer.
I guess I will finish my post. Thanks for your explanation, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
Make a note in your diary AmyStephen accepts she was wrong ;)
AmyStephen
· 2 months ago
I am wrong every day - and the frequency is escalating at an alarming rate!
AmyStephen
· 2 months ago
To be honest, I always hope these types of concerns are a big mistake. I hate to write pieces like this: Is Joomlart Violating the GNU again? First Rocketheme, and now YOU Joomla?. It's really important to respect the copyright of others. When we share our work with the GPL, that's generous enough. Small price to pay to acknowledge the work of others. It's inexcusable to not.
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
They are violating the GPL not the GNU.
Brian Sullivan
· 2 months ago
The bigger concern I have is that this is a pattern with the company, and I don't know if they merely take GPL-licensed code and fail to attribute, or if they also do this with design (a post above suggests they do) and proprietary licensed code where there is no freedom to redistribute. It's simple enough for me to insert a copyright notice where I know one belongs and thus protect my clients; it's not so simple in other cases and potentially exposes the end user of a template license it to IP infringement claims. Bad bad bad.
AmyStephen
· 2 months ago
Brian - you are exactly right.
Brian Sullivan
· 2 months ago
I found a (badly behaving and admittedly ridiculous) user on their forums who showed that JoomlArt was using a suckerfish menu script that has a prohibition against commercial use "without express written permission." Assuming they took the trouble to get that permission, what possible reason is there to not take the minimal extra step after that effort and update the copyright notice with three words, "Used with permission"?
Yes but they REMOVED the copyright from the code and you cannot do that no matter how much you place credits elsewhere
ronildo
· 2 months ago
Ah ok... I didn't know it.
Chad Windnagle
· 2 months ago
This is really really unfortunate. Joomlart! Shame on you. Do you realize this effects more than your company? How about the hundreds of developers who subscribe to your club? We're selling our clients development services and using "your" code. This hurts more than just your reputations!
2ninerniner2
· 2 months ago
I am awaiting a reply from a client (the only one of mine using the Joomlart template from the Joomla distro) as to whether I can change out the template. I explained the situation and this client, who is of high integrity, I am sure will agree.
I too am in agreement to have their template removed from the distro, especially after this latest episode.
Brian Sullivan
· 2 months ago
I have a law firm client which we built a site for by customizing a Joomlart template. They cannot plead ignorance of copyright infringement doing what they do. I made that same call in order to get in front of this mess because clearly there's no telling what else could be stolen; now I'm looking at hours of work coming to me for which I won't be fully compensated.
Dragan
· 2 months ago
We contacted them , I am sure they will be creative and blame their "new developer" again. Only reason why I am mad about this is my numerous emails to them , telling where and who stole their templates , or who was reselling them. In last 2 years I am sure I sent them around 30 links to websites that steel , and on top of that I was also sending them the uernames of fraud committed user emails . This is a BIG thank you
Dragan
· 2 months ago
and 6 hours later , the mistake is fixed , but no reply , instead we got script generated email saying " our staff will review...."
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
fixed??
Dragan
· 2 months ago
well so to say fixed , they placed the copyright back in the file they have as demo , but damage is made , I understand that we cant be original anymore and there are so many resources but hey , I will leave it now to others to judge
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
Looks the same to me
Dragan
· 2 months ago
Try to do a refresh please you will see our copyright is back on their demo.
Brian Teeman
· 2 months ago
ah yes a refresh worked. Well I guess this is some sort of success but really should we have to police everything joomlArt for copyright and license infringement??
Dragan
· 2 months ago
Just got back in office and yes, Hun replied to our email , in between the lines and explanation how this happened ( same as with RT script ) we got "I have nothing to explain except for the apology.". We will take it as is and be on lookout for any further issues. I hope they learn from all this and if in fact is dev's fault , find someone who actually know how to code required scripts.
hungdinh
· 2 months ago
Hi Dragan Todorovic, Brian & everyone
Yes, as detailed in my email right after I work with ThanhNV this morning.
I have just taken off this module forever off the demo as well on the download packages. Further, I just can not think of any other word to write to you rather than just a plain & sincere sorry, but it was not planned or standard practice at JA. We are a trusted & respected brand. I need to get my house in shape, so that such things do not happen again ever and new developers shall not be given independent projects, as was the case for these modules.
Its a shame for me and i feel pretty humiliated, that after 10 years of Brand building and quality products, today I owe you guys apologies, I owe the responsibility for blunders committed by my developer. I can assure you that such act is neither supported or encouraged by me.
Looking towards the damage these two modules have caused to me and My Company in the past 1 month. I have removed and discontinued development / distribution of both the disputed modules.
Brian Sullivan
· 2 months ago
"We are a trusted and respected brand."
Not by me anymore.
torkil
· 2 months ago
Yah. Retweet is the new Digg!
Dan Partac
· 2 months ago
They must be desperate to resist market changes, they have done a huge effort of developing Magento templates, and now they have to add more value to their subscription pack, by any means.
All Comments
I still don't appreciate the false reports of emails and communications during this debacle. Effectively we had code stolen from us, and then I've been called a liar when I tried to notify Joomlart and resolve this quietly.
Anyway, it's done, and I now know how Joomlart does business. Lesson learned.
No doubt something has gone wrong. Yes JA did receive email from Mr. Andy on 14th and Mr. Hung did reply it back to him on 15th and analysis and confirmation of the codes similarity (as pointed out) was and is underway.
JA has replied to Mr. Andy mail and is coming up with detailed reply to Mr. Andy and other concerned friends from Joomla.org. Its not sounding right, that JA did not respond to emails from Mr. Andy. JA did email back to all the concerned emails and JA will not hesitate to admit or accept of faults on its end.
JA is equally serious about the whole issue.
Here are the headers of the email conversation, Please look at the date.
From: Andy Miller <xxxx@rockettheme.com>
Date: September 14, 2009 12:19:53 PM MDT
To: pixxxx@joomlart.com
Cc: "JoomlArt.com" <customerxxxx@joomlart.com>, xxxxxxx <webmaxxxx@joomlart.com>
Subject: Teline III and xxxxxxxxx of RokWeather / RokStock
From: Hung Dinh <xxxxxxx@joomsolutions.com>
Date: Tue, Sep 15, 2009 at 11:13 PM
Subject: Re: Teline III and xxxxxx of RokWeather / RokStock
To: Andy Miller <xxxxxxx@rockettheme.com>
This comment is only to clarify your worry that "And if JoomlArt had responded to the emails from RocketTheme I would probably have never written this." Anyways, it was in open in RT forums for few days now. Once, email correspondence between JA and RT is conclusive, JA shall make its conclusions public if really asked for or required, so as to clarify and put this issue to rest. JA be given this period.
JA is in touch with Mr. Andy and JA awaits the reply from Mr. Andy and also JA is coming up with a detailed mail explaining on the issues concerned.
Dear Friends, reading and commenting here, please be assured of fair practices at JA and JA stands committed. JA be given chance to explain its stand and findings. The words currently being used hurts. JA is a responsible Entity.
I am Dr. Arvind C., Super Mod at JA and friend of Mr. Hung, requesting all to give JA some time to finalize its findings.
Peace.
Arvind
------------------
@ Brian, I would suggest Keira Knightley as the gratuitous love interest.
-------------------
And as you have confirmed from the email subject the module I highlighted in my blog post is NOT the only one taken from RocketTheme.
My earlier post was not about confirmation of the modules involved, it was purely for the information that JA has replied to the queries raised by Mr. Andy.
A final email along with a hard copy is being prepared (almost done) and shall be sent across to Mr. Andy.
When you "steal" something the person who owned it doesn't have it any more. In this case they still have it but it's been copied without consent.
I am just getting sick of all music labels arguments that downloading their music is the same thing as stealing from a supermarket. It's not.
Yay for encrpyption!
But yeah, that was uncool of Joomlart.
Additionally, it requires users to have additional nonsense (such as IonCube) installed on their server to even use the extensions.
I think the real solution is obvious: have morals.
That means that as a developer modifying someone else's GPL'ed work, do not remove their copyright notice.
If you're a user and you become aware of a company knowingly doing exactly that (ie, repeated history of such violations, not taking responsibility for their actions, etc), do not enable them by purchasing from them.
http://seansperte.com/entry/flattery/
http://www.pixelpusher.biz/archive/article.asp?...
That's one of the intentions.
2. One of the great things about open source software is that we can adapt it as we see fit for our own needs.
That's one of the intentions.
3. There is just one rule.
Credit where credit is due.
Copyright and GPL are two different things. Yet still so many people who don't understand the finer details or just neglect them.
I could see a time-release element on the watermark that would, 24 hours after the thief posts it, leave an indelible pink smudge all over the rip-off artist's page, like banks do with stolen cash, or public pool managers do to visually identify who took a whiz in the shallow end.
I don't think you can ever have a fool proof method to prevent this sort of theft
The day's coming when the DNA of the elements which define content itself will be carry information - be that in images, fonts and text, video, audio and live content - and be quite capable of identifying the bad guys, and leaving a clear trail for authorities (and lawyers) to enforce another kind of "IP" justice. Oh god, I kill me.
I really hate naming and shaming as a general principle but at the same time I believe in openness. People who attempt to benefit from the backs of others hard work really are the lowest of the low in my book.
http://joomla-jumi.blogspot.com/2009/01/how-to-...
I do not know what policy currently is enforced on the JED, but this is a clear example on a violation, and a reason to be removed from the JED if you ask me.
The JED policies are fairly clear and I am sure that IF JoomlArt had attempted to publish their module on JED it would have been removed eventually.
But JoomlArt are not listed, don't know why, so it was only a "name and shame".
Note this is NOT the only time they have been caught out stealing templates and modules
I never see it anymore
http://digg.com/programming/Inspired_copied_or_...
I would appreciate a credit and link although thats not required.
WTFPL
as the site is still beta can be remove fast if not to your satisfaction.
http://joomlacoders.ca/the-news/48--inspired-co...
Not the first time this has happened, even at an official level. When people are being trained at Joomla Days to rip and repackage other people's creative copyrighted works (note, there is no clear delineation on a GPL licence violation in this case), it's not half obvious that things are not sunshine and roses within the Joomla community.
The problem is that the horse has well and truly bolted in terms of copyright protection, since there has been a history of copyright infringement for a while. This problem is pervasive across the Joomla industry / bazaar / marketplace, and nothing is done about it.
And you wonder why people encrypt and provide dial-home devices? To stop this sort of copyright infringement occurring. But hey, the JED and OSM only allow GPL works.. and it still happens...
The irony here is deafening.
For the last few days, I feel very sad and regretfull for the big mistake that I have committed. Actually, my careless deeds has seriously affected the fame that JoomlArt team has been building very hardly so far. However, I also would like to clarify that is just because of my carelessness while doing reference, not ever have intention of copying other's creation illegally.
I have joined JoomlArt team shortly since 17/Aug/2009, only 1 month ago. Though, I have been working as a web developer for 3 years now but my experience in this new enviroment with high competition from global market is totally fresh. As a new member of JoomlArt and a new web developer, I was assigned to do the weather module for the great Teline III . I know that I need to do reference to other successful module of same type in Joomla extensions including Rok weather, to learn the good and ignore the bad features with the hope to do our self's best products.
After thorough research and learning from other sources, I do rewrite all the codes for JA weather module into JoomlArt standards and requirements. However, due to my carelessness and the pressure of handing in a module for release of the August JoomlArt template- JA TEline III, I have forgotten to remove the reference sources away out of cookies, not imagining how serious this mistake is.
I respect other's works and only by this way, I know other can respect my works. I am admired of JoomlArt's efforts and contribution in web development and templates in particular so far so that is the reason why I join this team. I do hope you understand my position and help me and my company to overcome this terrible issue.
Once again thank you and please contact me if I can clarify things in better way.
Best Regards,
Nguyen Viet Thanh
JA Developer
As I said in my post the correct thing to do would have to credited RocketTheme and respected their copyright statements.
And if JoomlArt had responded to the emails from RocketTheme I would probably have never written this.
I am so stress because so many pressure out on my mistake, from the boss, from the fellow workers and now from the Joomla team
No one is perfect, however he is trying his best to put everything into the right track, does he desert the second chance?
That way you won't be tempted
(I suggest that you also re-examine the other work you have done for JoomlArt and ensure that that is properly credited as well. It's really not hard for an outsider to look at two files and find the similarities. Similarities that you don't get without copy-paste)
However, this is really hard for JA and my team, I just joined and now ruining JA reputation which they have built for many years. I can not just "sit down" in front of my computer and code the reputation from the scratch.
......I am sorry, JoomlArt & Joomla fellows
One example: http://zunostudios.com/blogs/Linux.com-Looks-a-...
(Don't skip the comments)
freshnews: http://www.woothemes.com/demo/freshnews/
ThinkVitamin: http://thinkvitamin.com/ (they changed?)
http://www.linux.com/
I do think they are 4 different art works. (as my first impression) I ll digg down and may come up with new thoughts
I really can't be bothered right now but I could have done the same analysis on that module and come up with the same results.
Why waste your time uploading it to Google? Just put back the rokweather copyright info that you earlier deleted.
Your crime is not in copying the code, your crime is in claiming it as your own.
One would also like to see an official response from this Hung Dinh fellow... since he is the one selling/distributing the extension in violation of the GPL.
Also, the beta download has not been distributed, the related issues is about the Demo site when it is open for testing.
Correct me if I am wrong, I am positively listening and correcting everything
You based you code on someone else's work. That is why the code and files you based it on where in there in the first place. You even left the same default location and parameters. You derived your work from theirs. It may be mostly different, but that doesn't matter. You used theirs as inspiration and to "to learn the good and ignore the bad features"
All you had to do was leave the copyright info in there and add your own as well. Then good manners would be to send an email to the person who wrote it and say "Hey I have made a derivative work from yours. An attribution and your copyright are still in there." If you had done that none of this would have happened.
I can understand that some things aren't cost-effective to develop, but a weather module, out of all things...
I am Hung Dinh from JA.
This issue has been brought up to my attentions 3 days ago and we have made necessary actions as well as be in close contact with Andy Miller, Andrew Eddie & Brian on the issues.
I feel that there have been enough clarification & explanations from thanhnv about how things have gone wrong.
JA templates and products, are also being inspired, copied, stolen everyday & everywhere on the internet and we understand how bad the feelings can be.
I have sent letters of clarification & apology to Andy and still wait for his response.
If you are going to apologize, then apologize. Don't continue to lie and say you have been in 'close contact', you have not, you've been AWOL. You have not sent a letters of clarification or an apology to me, I'm still waiting on both. I have merely received one email saying something more is coming.
I assume you did not get this 1 page long email, I have also forwarded to all my team & moderators. I have just resent and want to be clear on the communication.
I agree.. JoomlArt, own up to it... and say you're sorry! Andy works hard on his code, and he deserves more than silence!
But then I saw your message Hung Dinh... :-)
"The open-source movement is based on programmers writing software and then giving it away, with coding for all to see. Every programmer who uses it is free to improve on it, in the process creating constantly improving, free software. "
taken from:
http://www.time.com/time/innovators/web/profile...
(For user who can German or can handle a translator: http://www.joomlaportal.de/joomla-templates-und... )
Bottom line, they did what they did and not for the first time and they've been found out and not for the first time. However they want to gloss this over people will see it as just gloss.
It is sad that they do it but that is what Joomlart do, it's their method of operating. If you don't mind it fine, but just be careful that if you are a developer, one day you might see something you've written on their website and they'll be acting like they built it.
This Was The Tweet By @iapostolov http://twitter.com/iapostolov/status/3961528656
Tweet Also Has Link To RT Forum Post Where By RT Was Notified About It...
It Just Said "A competitor of RocketTheme is using their code" By This Time Name Of Competitor Was Not Clear...
Later That Day Another Tweet From @iapostolov Mentioned Template Name As Teline III
http://twitter.com/iapostolov/status/3964908480
I Did A Quick Search To Find Teline III Is JA Template...
Next Day @rhuk Tweeted Asking For "Real" Persons Email At JA
http://twitter.com/rhuk/status/4006402672
And Then Yesterday I Saw The Blog Post Here.....
That Was The Quick Recap From What I Was Following.... :-)
Even supporters or staffs of JA Forums don't have good English writting and vocabulary like that.
There is no doubt. You can kill me if I'm wrong, anyway it's just a virtual world, you can fake anything you like. So sad.
how about this
http://www.gamespot.com/?tag=nav-top;home&navcl...
http://template15.joomlart.com/ja_sanidine/
if gamespot where mine I would SCREAM DMCA!
Excellent article, a full audit of all Joomla based extensions and modules would be interesting indeed...wonder how many articles you could wirte then?
especially when we talk about commercial extensions that are based on 90% free resources.
How would the situation be if Google and Yahoo to vindicate the rights and claims for the use of these free resources distributed by two contenders as commercial own works?
but ... what emerges from this sad story is lacking creativity and inspiration when always on movement around 3 to 4 repeating scripts
So I remain difficult shocked when such events occur because it is the normal life cycle when no new ideas and creativity are no longer with us.
http://twitter.com/AmyStephen/status/4023389273
These are in JED for ages, totally non-GPL, reported by me, by AmyStephen and by others. Reported weeks ago. And still there.
Let's also look at the Joomla Connect rules:
Feeds from originating sites that distribute extensions will only be published if those extensions are GPL-compliant. Do not make it difficult for us to verify this. If we can't easily find proof, your feed submission will not be accepted.
However Joomla Connect continuously post the blogs from instantPHP and Joomlart. The first one have non GPL extensions, Joomlart as well (and encrypted) and Joomlart templates now require an additional fee for removing copyright (also non GPL for the PHP files).
All of these reported MANY times.
I really start to believe that these developers are paying to the JED editors and JoomlaConnect manager to be still there.
Respect
http://templates.joomlart.com/ja_teline_iii//mo...
http://joomla1.5.youjoomla.info/realtor/templat...
how many of our scripts did they use for this template?
Surely it's time for us as a Joomla community to do something about this.
For now I would suggest that the joomlart template included in the core of Joomla is removed
Sad.... just so sad.
Sorry that I mixed up youjoomla and rockettheme. The purpose of the tweet still stands though.
@author Constantin Boiangiu <info [at] constantinb.com>
@copyright Copyright (C) 2009 Youjoomla LLC.
@license GNU/GPL, see http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html
Let's all read http://www.softwarefreedom.org/blog/?tag=infrin... and you should start taking action.
It wouldn't hurt to bring together the others who have been infringed and contact the FSF and see what legal support they can offer.
I guess I will finish my post. Thanks for your explanation, sorry for the misunderstanding.
http://www.joomlart.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
if you dont report it they wont know about it
http://www.artio.net/products/joomla-extensions...
I too am in agreement to have their template removed from the distro, especially after this latest episode.
Yes, as detailed in my email right after I work with ThanhNV this morning.
It's now clear, ThanhNV (http://disqus.com/thanhnv/ did remove the copyright.
I have just taken off this module forever off the demo as well on the download packages. Further, I just can not think of any other word to write to you rather than just a plain & sincere sorry, but it was not planned or standard practice at JA. We are a trusted & respected brand. I need to get my house in shape, so that such things do not happen again ever and new developers shall not be given independent projects, as was the case for these modules.
Its a shame for me and i feel pretty humiliated, that after 10 years of Brand building and quality products, today I owe you guys apologies, I owe the responsibility for blunders committed by my developer. I can assure you that such act is neither supported or encouraged by me.
Looking towards the damage these two modules have caused to me and My Company in the past 1 month. I have removed and discontinued development / distribution of both the disputed modules.
Not by me anymore.